#include #include #include

Interview with Joey

In June and August 2003 Aleksey V. Dolya conducted an interview with Joey for F-Center. Below please find the questions and answers since the interview is published only in \ Russian otherwise.

Quoting from our website:

The Debian Project was officially founded by Ian Murdock on August 16th, 1993. At that time, the whole concept of a "distribution" of Linux was new. Ian intended Debian to be a distribution which would be made openly, in the sprit of Linux and GNU (read his manifesto provided as an appendix to this document for more details). The creation of Debian was sponsored by the FSF's GNU project for one year (November 1994 to November 1995).

Quoting from the website:

It is maintained by its users.
If something needs to be fixed or improved, we just do it.
Unparalleled support
Mail sent to the mailing lists often gets answers within 15 minutes (or less), for free, and by the people who developed it. Compare that to typical phone support: hours spent on the phone, for money, only to get someone who doesn't know the system well enough to even understand your question.
The best packaging system in the world.
Tired of old files from software three versions old cluttering your system? Or installing a piece of software only to find it causes your system to crash because of software conflicts? Dpkg, Debian's endured packaging system, takes care of these issues for you.
Easy installation
If you have heard that Linux is difficult to install, then you haven't tried Debian lately. We are constantly improving the installation process. You can do the installation directly from CD, DOS, floppies or even over the network.
Incredible amounts of software
Debian comes with over 8710 different pieces of software. Every bit of it is free. If you have proprietary software that runs under Linux, you can still use it - in fact, there may even be an installer in Debian that will automatically install and set up everything for you.
Packages well integrated
Debian surpasses all other distributions in how well its packages are integrated. Since all software is packaged by a coherent group, not only can all packages be found at a single site, but you can be assured that we have already worked out all issues regarding complicated dependencies. While we feel that the deb format has some advantages over the rpm format, it is the integration between the packages that makes a Debian system more robust.
Easy upgrades
Due to our packaging system, upgrading to a new version of Debian is a snap. Just run apt-get update ; apt-get dist-upgrade and you can upgrade from a CD in a matter of minutes or point apt at one of the over 150 Debian mirrors and upgrade over the net.
Bug tracking system
Debian's bug tracking system is publicly available. We don't try to hide the fact that software doesn't always work the way users want. Users are encouraged to submit bug reports and are notified when and why the bug was closed. This system allows Debian to respond to problems quickly and honestly.
Stability
There are many cases of machines that run for over a year without rebooting. Even then, they are only rebooted due to a power failure or a hardware upgrade. Compare that to other systems that crash multiple times a day.

I don't have a title. I'm a Debian developer. You may refer to me as Martin Schulze, Joey Schulze or Martin 'Joey' Schulze. To find out who I am, you should find out what I do (just type "joey schulze" with or without "debian" into Google and see).

In this archive you'll find many screens taken from the installation of Debian GNU/Linux 3.0 (inside of vmware, if I remember correctly).

On these URLs people have collected some screens from running systems.

Many Linux distributions are proud that they are fully compatible with Red Hat Linux. And what about Debian GNU/Linux?

Debian GNU/Linux is compatible with the FHS (Filesystem Hierarchy Standard) and mostly with the \ LSB (Linux Standard Base).

Quoting from our website:

The Debian Project is pleased to announce the release of Debian GNU/Linux version 3.0. Debian GNU/Linux is a free operating system, which now supports a total of eleven processor architectures, includes KDE and GNOME desktop environments, features cryptographic software, is compatible with the FHS v2.2 and supports software developed for the LSB.

This is the first release of Debian that is compatible with version 2.2 of the Filesystem Hierarchy Standard (FHS). Debian GNU/Linux now also supports software developed for the Linux Standard Base (LSB), though it is not yet LSB certified.

Debian Developers try very hard to develop and package the software in a sane way that allows users to copy programs and libraries from Debian systems to other vendor's systems (such as the one you named, for example).

However, from time to time other vendors decide to package an experimental GCC or an experimental GLIBC which is incompatible to older (and sometimes even to newer) versions. In such cases, they will will immediately become incompatible to Debian, of course.

Quoting from our website:

Important Change in lm-sensors. David Maze [26]reported that the binary interface in libsensors1 has changed between lm-sensors 2.6.5 and 2.7.0 without a corresponding change in the library's soname. The correct action would be a changed soname which has to be done upstream, who did not yet respond. It has been suggested that he changes the soname of the library within Debian in the meantime.

Yes, there are. However, we only develop Debian GNU/Linux, the one and only.

Since the Debian system is entirely free, people are invited to use it and develop it - as long as they respect the licenses that often requires them to publish the modified source as well.

Quoting from our website:

There are a number of distributions based on Debian. Some users might want to take a look at these distributions in addition to the official Debian releases. This is done for a number of reasons (better localization support, specific hardware support, simplified installation, etc).

Debian welcomes and encourages organisations that want to develop new distributions based on Debian. However, in the spirit of Debian's social contract, we ask them to contribute their work to the main distribution so that ultimately, all users can benefit from improvements.

The known Debian-based distributions are (in alphabetical order, not chronological):

I'm sorry, but I can't, since they are out of our and out of my scope. All I can say is that they have to publish their source code as well, since they used Free Software.

No. It's a contribution to the FSF for its ideological help.

Quoting from our website:

Some time ago, the Debian group decided to decline continued FSF sponsorship. This was followed by some well-meaning but very poorly stated messages that enraged many Linux participants.

After an interval of broken communications, Debian and FSF have resumed cordial relations and are cooperating, even though FSF no longer has the control over the project that came with their former sponsorship of Debian, and Debian will _not_ ask for a resumption of sponsorship. Both groups have decided that this should not keep us from working together, and we are confident that we can mend any remaining Linux-FSF schism.

What will come of this? An end to the annoying and useless "FSF vs. Linux" net discussion. More support for Linux in GNU software, and more support for FSF's goals in Linux software.

To commemorate our decision that GNU and Linux should be partners, we will resume use of the name "Debian GNU/Linux" for our system.

I thought that "the best packaging" system is RPM by Red Hat.

I should return a question, is VI the best editor or is it Emacs? Is Java the best programming language or is it C++? What's the best scripting language, Perl or Python?

We from Debian do believe, of course, that the .deb packaging system is superior over RPM, however, one could say that we may be a little bit biased.

The way of Debian packaging is documented in detail on our website. There's the packaging manual that describes the technical details. Next to it is the Debian Policy that describes where files have to be put and how packages interact with each other.

The superior feature of .deb over .rpm, and this is a totally unbiased view, is that to unpack a binary Debian package (.deb) and to unpack a source package (.diff.gz, .dsc, .tar.gz) you only need standard Unix tools and nothing fancy. This means that you can unpack all packages on any system that provides standard Unix tools.

For source packages this refers to tar, gzip/gunzip and patch. For binary packages this refers to ar, since a .deb file is nothing more than a ar archive consisting of three files, two of them are compressed tar archives again. For RPM you are required to use RPM tools to unpack source and binary packages, which could cause problems on non-Redhat systems.

Is it only server OS? Are there any benefits for home users from using Debian?

The purpose of the Debian OS is to provide a free operating system. Therefore we have developed the Debian Free Software Guidelines which defines these freedoms.

Debian has a lot of benefits. However, to list all, I would exceed the possible space, so I'll only mention two and refer to a web page.

For one, you can easily upgrade to a newer distribution of Debian or the current development systems (testing, unstable). Debian implements long release cycles so that a release usually lasts for one or more years. After that, it is still possible to upgrade and especially to the new stable release. You type "apt-get update" and "apt-get dist-upgrade" and let the system upgrade, while it is running and even remotely.

For the second, the Debian project has a very active security team and security updates are available usually after a few days. All you have to do to make use of them is to use a special package configuration and execute "apt-get update && apt-get upgrade" daily. Of course, security updates are also announced via mali and on the web server.

For the rest, I'd like to refer to our web pages.

Each Linux distribution can be divided into two parts: Linux kernel and the brand-new software, which is developed only for this distribution. What is the second part for Debian GNU/Linux?

You refer to software that was only developed for Debian? It's difficult to find some since even apt-get was imported from Conectiva, so it's not even Debian-only. However, since all software that Debian develops is Free Software, it can freely be used by other people, distributions and entities.

I see that you are very attentive in using the word "GNU" speaking about Debian GNU/Linux. But many others GNU/Linux distributors do not use the word "GNU" in there brands. Do you think it is right? Could you comment it?

The Debian project has the same oppinion as Richard Stallman about the use of GNU/Linux instead of Linux if you are speaking about the whole operating system and not just the Linux kernel. This gives credit to the GNU project and demonstrates that it is a GNU system.

Furthermore the "GNU" in the name of our distribution also demonstrates the strong affiliation to the ideology and philosophy of the Free Software Foundation.

Since I've acquired the press department inside the Debian project, it's also my job to ensure the proper use of our distribution name in official conversations.

You always say "Debian project". Does it mean that there is no any company, which officially develops and supports Debian GNU/Linux?

Partially. The Debian project is an entity. It comprises of about 1000 registrated developers, about 200 new-maintainers who will probably become registrated developers at some stage, about 200 more or less active and interested users and an infinite number of other volunteers who just use the system, report bugs and get in touch with out people.

The Debian project is not a company, nor is it a foundation or something incorporated. We have founded Software in the Public Interest, Inc. for a legal umbrella in cases where it is needed. SPI itself, however, supports more than just Debian.

Speaking of support, there are quite a lot of companies providing support for Debian GNU/Linux. On this list you'll find a list sorted by country.

Speaking about Debian GNU/Linux you have said that there are many distributions, which are based on Debian GNU/Linux. But is there a Debian GNU/Linux distribution in the "pure" variant? Can users buy it and install?

Sure, the Debian project creates the pure one and only Debian GNU/Linux. Other vendors and developers are free to use it under the terms of the respective licenses, modify it and create a new product. Users are free to download the pure Debian system from the net, purchase it at one of the many CD vendors or use a modified variant of another vendor.

Most prominently the Knoppix CD or DVD is based on Debian. Users are free to use the pure system as created by the Debian project or any other - what we call - children distribution.

It's those little things that make Debian great.

There are many different Linux distributions. Don't you think that it is a weak strategy try to attract users by a horde of distributions? It is very difficult for users to choose the one from many.

Well, people have been scared more or less about the number of GNU/Linux distributiones. However, you'll have to recognise that many of those are useful for one particular use and can't be counted as general purpose distribution.

However, there are only half a dozen large general purpose distributions. Three are totally free in their development model, the others are more or less commercial. At least two of the commercial ones already faced financial problems in the past.

The commercial market depends on some of the commercially created ones and also depends on the competition between them. The free ones are totally free in what they are doing and evolving into.

Hence, I believe that the large free ones will stay and attract a large user and developer base. This refers to Gentoo, ROCK Linux and Debian. All three do a fantastic job integrating all those wonderful Free Software.

Of the commercial ones, two are required for businesses. Maybe only two will stay alive in the long term, but the future has to teach us there. I cannot forsee the future.

The user needs to try the distributions he can get a hold of and check whether they fit his needs or not.

What is your own opinion about the future of GNU/Linux in general and Debian GNU/Linux especially?

Ignoring a wider legislation of software patents the use of GNU/LInux will most probably spread and increase. See the Munich city story as an example, or the introduction into the Japanese government as another example, or the tiny pc in India as just another.

Software patents, however, are a big danger to software developed outside of very large companies since the developers can't ensure not to violate other patents they have never heard of and there are really stupid patents granted already.

The three free distributions will be used by more people as well, especially if they have encountered problems with commercially developed distributions.

Personally I believe they are totally bogus. And if I should be wrong, they are irrelevant since SCO distributed this very product under the GPL and hence can't require other people to purchase licenses from them.

Here is what I wrote in DWN:

Debian Stance on the SCO Allegation. It was asked twice last week whether the allegations of SCO, formerly know as Caldera, a GNU/Linux-oriented business, affect the Debian project. Ray Dassen explained that the issue so far consists of allegations and rumors from a company that is far along the way to obsolescence. They have yet to produce anything that could be remotely considered evidence, while there have been concrete indications of SCO itself violating the GPL by the inclusion of GPLed filesystem code from the Linux kernel into its proprietary (Unixware?) kernel. A detailed analysis was released earlier by the Open Source Initiative.

In Germany at least three companies (univention, LinuxTag and a third I forgot already) took legal action against SCO. SCO will either have to retract their claims, disclose their "proof" (if it exists) or be fined. SCO did not provide their "proof" but instead got their lawyers to sign the paper which forbids them to mention such claim in Germany again or they'll have to pay some 250.000 EUR.

Take a look at CorelOS, then take a look at LindowsOS or Xandros. And finally check out Knoppix. They are successful and so will GNU/Linux. The GNOME and KDE environment are great for users that need integrated graphical environment and who also have some spare computing power to drive them.

Additionally, software will be improved and so will the desktop presence. Up to now GNU/Linux is used for many desktop uses (or you could call them applieances).

For example, in our local university library there are about 50 (estimated, not counted, hence, could be as well 200 or only 30) investigation terminals. They run a graphical system, and most of the interaction is done with a browser. There's a printer hooked to a couple of machines so students can print their stuff. Now, if you know KDE and look close to how windows are drawn, you'll notice that it is a configured variety of KDE with a GNU/Linux system below.

This is how it has to work, and how it will work. It doesn't matter what system is used, this is irrelevant for the user. It just works. That's important. And by this, it will be Free Software.

There are also 11,000 desktop computers in the police department in lower Saxony in Germany that are running GNU/Linux. They use OpenOffice or StarOffice as their office suite and mostly access a remote mainframe machine. Then there is the Munich city deal which also includes a large variety of desktop machines.

Hence, I do believe that GNU/Linux will be used more and more as desktop system as well.

Speaking about proprietary and free software, what do you think about BSD operating systems? Are they your allies or enemies?

Of course, they are allies. The BSD projects produce, package and integrate Free Software as well. The main difference, however, is that they consider it cool when their Free Software is turned into proprietary products. Even while the Free Software community often finds this too lax, it's their decision on how to distribute their source, so it's fine. And, of course, it's still Free Software, and much of it is very good.

DWN is the abbreviation for Debian Weekly News. It is the weekly newsletter for the Debian community. It covers many issues that happen in the Debian community, summarises them and reports about them. For many people it is their window into the Debian community so they can stay up-to-date without having to commit 4 hours per day.

DWN is a weekly e-zine that reports about many issues, not only from within the Debian project itsel but also reports about issues and documents from third parties. For example, it mentions whitepapers and research documents or projects that maintain a connection to Debian. This interview will probably also be mentioned there.

DWN was started as an experiment on January 4th, 1999, by Joey Hess. He was fascinated by LWN (Linux Weekly News) an online information resource which informs readers about what is going on in the GNU/Linux world. Joey even wrote in the first issue "This issue is somewhat an experiment, and will be continued based on reader responses and my free time."

He terminated DWN with the issue on March 29, 2001, hence, about two years later. He writes "After two years of weekly publication, it's becoming quite a strain to maintain a consistent level of quality in the newsletter." On May 6th, three new people took over, however, the issues weren't sent out too frequently.

I started contributing to DWN for the July 18th issue in 2001. At that time it already was a two-weekly newsletter. In September I managed to help creating a weekly newsletter again and also started the German translation in connection with a German mailing list for them. Some issues later (I don't know which) I fully took over DWN. It became rather large and is translated into many languages.

Do you think they are your allies or enemies?

For most of us the "Open Source Movement" is a marketing or pr term. We are part of the Free Software Movement which was started with the founding of the FSF by Richard Stallman way back in time. For Debian Open Source and Free Software are synonyms. The Debian Free Software Guidelines define which software or licenses are Free in the Debian meaning. These guidelines were adopted by the OSI as Open Source Definition.

What relations do you have with him?

I have met him a couple of times, so for a certain definition of "knowing" I guess I know him. Interestingly, I managed to be able to invite both him and the Debian project Leader at that time, Bruce Perens, to a conference in Germany that I was organising.

Richard has a Guru status, most people will agree. However, he's still somebody who you can chat with if there should be a few spare seconds at trade shows. Speaking about licenses and software, Richard does not move an inch, which is probably good, even though there are still people who don't buy his arguments. However, this opens a way to meet somewhere in between which may still be signifficantly better than nothing.

The Debian project owes Richard Stallman and the FSF a lot. Not only was Ian Murdock funded for a year by the FSF so he was able to work on Debian full-time. Richard also founded the FSF and wrote the GPL (+LGPL) and started much of the tools you'll find on every GNU/Linux machine like Emacs, GCC and stuff.

What relations do you have with him?

Unfortunately I never met him. He's not an ideological leader like Richard but rather a technical leader. He also doesn't have a message to praise, Richard does. Oh, and even worse, he doesn't like to talk in front of many people and doesn't like trade shows too much. Hence, your chances to meet him somewhere are very limited.

Sure. To be fair, I have to mention that my opinion may be biased, though.

 # Local variables: # mode: text # end: